Tuesday, June 02, 2009

A fresh start?

Sorry for not posting for a while.

There have been lots of articles and interviews recently speculating about secret meetings between Ukraine's leading politicians attempting to form of a previously-unthinkable PoR-BYuT-Lytvynite grand coalition. Perhaps some tail-enders could join too. By all accounts there is now a distinct possibility that such a coalition could come into being very soon.

One of the main features of such a coalition would be an agreement to change the constitution, enabling the new president [i.e. Yanukovych] to be elected by parliament. Under this arrangement PM Tymoshenko would remain in her current position for several years, and Volodymyr Lytvyn would remain VR speaker.

Sure, the ruling elites are blatantly rigging the democratic system. But if such a grand coalition could improve political stability and help the country get through the current global economic crisis maybe neutral observers whould not be too critical..The years since the Orange Revolution have not been a success, so maybe it's time start afresh..

However, president Yushchenko may be ready to take the radical step of sacrificing himself and 'self-destructing' by resigning his presidency - forcing early presidential elections and scuppering any chance of any PoR-BYuT deal..


elmer said...

Political stability with a rigged system?


Government is supposed to be of the people, by the people, and for the people.

The fact that a bunch of maggots agree on how to rape a country, and how to rob it blind in a "stable" way is supposed to be good?

Come on, goddamnit!!

Have people in Ukraine really lost all ability to think and act?

"Oh, gee, the oligarchs are going to rob me in a 'stable' way - oh, yippee"

Where is representative democracy?

Or can people in Ukraine not get past the concept that democracy is all about driving drunk behind the wheel of a car?

From the Orange Revolution to "stability".

Goddamn it to hell!

Anonymous said...

You really believe that the ruling elites who are rigging the democratic system are doing it on behalf of the country as a whole? That POR/BYUT given political stability and no elections will sort out the economic situation, make all the reforms necessary and then restore the democratic game? That meanwhile the oligarchs in both parties will keep their hands off all the assets. Just like in Russia where Putin has bought "stability" to the political system except that Ukraine doesn't have the gas to oil the system so nicely. Nice Dream.

Democracy at work said...

The formation of a broad coalition and proposals to establish Ukraine as a full Parliamentary democracy should be embraced and is a step in the right direction.

The cost of staging a Presidential election alone is justification for a Parliamentary appointment.

There are many examples of successful Western democracies where the head of state is not directly elected.

The presidential "rule by decree" system has failed Ukraine.

Ukraine has struggled since independence to become a true democracy based on a European style parliamentary "Rule of law" system of governance.

The proposal to appoint Ukraine's head of state by a constitutional majority is also a step forward and would see an end to Yushchenko's destructive policies of division.

Securing a constitutional majority is not an easy task.

Any agreement to provide for a Parliamentary appointed head of state must also limit the power of the head of state to dismiss Ukraine's democratically elected Parliament.

Bogdano said...

What a "progress".

Anonymous said...

Tymoshenko and Yanukovich's attempt at a coup is a disgrace. Do you really think this will stop instability in Ukraine politics? You must be kidding. Yushchenko is correct to not allow such a travesty of democracy. Seems Yulka and Yanuk are following Putins example of Democratic Dictatorship, my, won't the Kremlin be happy with this one.

Anonymous said...


"a travesty of democracy"

The only travesty is the President seeking to prevent Ukraine from adopting Democratoc rfeform that would see Ukraine become a Democratic Parliamentary state in line with other European Nations.

Anonymous said...

We can all see your "Democratic" reform, nothing more than a Putinesque scam, hatched to form a 10 year dictatorship without input from the citizenry, real democratic Craats!!

elmer said...


There are no "democratic reforms" here.

There are only rigged political stunts for the convenience of Tymonatrix and the ProFFesor, and the maggot oligarchs who now feed off the government.

In a true representative democracy, one elects reperesentatives directly.

Tymonatrix promised to eliminate the "party list" system, by which maggots buy their way on to party lists, and noone knows who's on the list.

The bitch also promised to eliminate parliamentary immunity.

Now, she is worried about elections.

So is the "proFFesor," who did hard time for rape.

Where in the hell is the democracy in what these maggots are proposing?

This is just sovok bullshit.

elmer said...

I don't think Germany or France or England have a "party list" system for election of Parliament.

Nor do they have complete immunity, like the crooks in Ukraine do.

Tymoshenko called on everyone to create the "best government in the world."

Instead, she is getting together with the maggot Mafia from Donbass, so that all of the "political elite" can continue to rob the people, through abuse of government, in peace and "stability."

It is hideous.

It is a travesty of democracy.

What's even worse is that there are losers who crawl out from under their rocks to deny it - sovok style.

Deny, deny, deny, deny.

What a travesty.

Anonymous said...

"in line with other democratic nations" that's so untrue - name one european democratic nation that elects a president with powers and not a ceremonial one in Parliament and one European Parl that extended its term beyond that mandated at the time it was elected? As soon as a Parl can extend its it own period it can do so indefinately - come 2012 they could just extend it again.

Anonymous said...


Germany and France most certianly do have a party list system.

Anon:502. I agree any suggestion and proposal top extend the term of the current Parliament would be wrong. But if you read more about the proposal Bloc Yulia Tymoshenko has opposed the suggestion of extending parliaments term of office.

The issue of Parliamentary immunity of over-stated. Ukraine does not have absolute immunity. (Except for the President)

Members of parliament and judges can be prosecuted. We have seen this time and time again. Most recently when a judge from Lviv was detained and sent to trial for corruption. I suggest you read Article 80 more carefully before you pump out false and misleading statements

The proposed reformes are not a coup as claimed by Yushchenko as part of his ill-considered opposition to democratic reform.

The proposed amendments seek to adopt European standards and European models. Bring Ukraine in line with other European states.

The issue and need for Ukraine to be`come a Parliamentary democracy has been debated in Ukraine since independence. It fell short by 5 votes in 2003 of being adopted.

Yushchenko's failure and betrayal has been his greatest achievement in that it has consolidated agreement in Ukraine to bring about Constitutional reform.

Ukraine should embrace the reforms and stability of the proposed alliance as a positive step forward in Ukraine's democratic development

All other former Soviet states and European states (With the exception of France) are governed under a parliamentary system, Why not Ukraine?

I wonder if those supporting the retention of the soviet presidential system will do so if and when Yanukovych is elected President?

Ukraine's Constitution

Article 80

People’s Deputies of Ukraine are guaranteed parliamentary immunity.
People’s Deputies of Ukraine are not legally liable for the results of voting or for statements made in Parliament and in its bodies, with the exception of liability for insult or defamation.

People’s Deputies of Ukraine shall not be held criminally liable, detained or arrested without the consent of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

Anonymous said...

It was not that long ago when Yushchenko and his supporters were actively arguing for a grand coalition with Party of Regions. Its OK when they hold the balance of power but not when Block Yulia Tymoshenko agree to an alliance to initiate long overdue democratic reform. Such hypocrites.

elmer said...

1) The coalition proposed by Yushchenko with the PoR, as odious as it was, did not involve changes to the Constitution.

That is the big difference.

2) Parliamentary immunity can indeed by removed - but it requires a vote.

The vote rarely comes.

The fact that a vote is necessary to remove the immunity insures that there is corruption.

It is not a part of any true democracy.

Some democracies have legislative immunity, meaning that legislators cannot be arrested or prosecuted for engaging in legitimate legislative activities.

But Ukraine has absolute immunity - meaning that some people, those in government, are above the law, until someone says otherwise.

3)Show me a reference, please, to the "party list" systems which you claim exist in France and Germany.

elmer said...

Germany does not have a party list system.

Here is a description of the composition of the German Parliament, and how it is elected.

The party list comes into play only as a part of direct elections.


The Electoral System

The Parliament of the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) consists of a lower house, the Bundestag, whose members are directly elected by universal adult suffrage, and an upper house, the Bundesrat, composed of representatives appointed by the Länder. The two bodies are not coequal chambers, with the Bundestag being the more powerful of the two.

The Bundestag is composed of 598 members elected for a four-year term of office. Prior to the German reunification of 1990 (in which the Länder of the German Democratic Republic were incorporated into the FRG), there were 496 seats in the chamber: for the post-reunification legislative elections held in 1990, 160 seats were added to represent the new Länder and Berlin, for a total of 656 seats. In 2002 the number of seats in the Bundestag was reduced to the current number.

The composition of the Bundestag is determined by the Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) system - also known as personalized proportional representation - which combines elements of the single-member constituency plurality system with PR. Under this system, the country is divided into a number of single-member constituencies (Wahlkreisen) equal to half the total amount of seats in the Bundestag. There were 248 of these constituencies between 1957 and 1987, 328 between 1990 and 1998, and 299 since 2002. These constituencies are allocated among the Länder in proportion to the size of their populations, and seats are filled by the plurality or first-past-the-post method, under which the candidate obtaining the largest number of votes in each constituency is elected.

However, in addition to nominating individual candidates for the direct mandate (Direktmandate) elections at the constituency level, political parties set up lists of individuals at the Land level (Landesliste). Each German casts two votes, namely a first vote (Erststimme) for a constituency candidate, and a second vote (Zweitstimme) for a party list. Party lists are closed, so electors may not choose individual candidates in or alter the order of such lists. Of the two votes, the second vote is the most important, since it is the one that determines the composition of the Bundestag.

elmer said...

Fance has a bicameral Parliament:

- the National Assembly, which is elected directly by the people, not on a party list basis;


- the Senate, which is elected indirectly by approximately 150,000 local elected officials


Again, NOT a party list system.